The Demand in America to become a Parent

Been trying to reblog this, but my comment’s obviously been FAAAAAAAAR too long to fit into what WP can handle, so I’m giving up ‘n’ adding my comment in on the reblog once it’s finally happened (it’s the first comment).

A Few Pieces Missing From Normalcy - An Infertile Man's Perspective

In our society there is ignorance (being uninformed) on many topics that lead to problems others suffer from. As a child I was unfairly stereotyped as a learning disabled child who should be coddled rather than challenged. The ignorance there was board of education leaders not understanding that every child is different. If it weren’t for my parents I would have suffered by never being challenged.

Now as an adult dealing with infertility with my wife we are dealing with a different type of societal ignorance and that is being childless. Time Magazine has published an article about those who choose to live a ChildFree lifestyle. While the article does hit on some key points how times have changed it does miss on other aspects such as missing the class of women who are childless by circumstance not by choice.

Pamela Tsigdinos a blogger an author of the book…

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About 7rin

UK Adoptee - Adopted in the UK Adoption - because "legalised child abandonment" just doesn't bring in the punters. View all posts by 7rin

8 responses to “The Demand in America to become a Parent

  • 7rin

    Y’know, I’d almost forgotten I’d got this blog running here, and so I’d like to say thanks to Greg for making me prowl through my blogs so’s I could be reminded that it existed. Now that I’ve remembered it does exist, it means I do have a place to come to where I can link to, and disseminate, blogs posted by complete and utter arsewipes such as Greg, and so don’t need to create yet another blog, so yup, thanks Greg.

    So why, I hear you asking, would someone such as me want to link to something written by an arsewipe such as Greg? Well, initially, I didn’t. Yes, he was a tad annoying in his tone (I’m hardly one in a position to criticise such things), but he didn’t seem to be painting an adoption as a fuzzy-wuzzy wonderland like so many of the n00bs seem to do (perhaps I bumped into him after he’d already been trained by others, perhaps he hadn’t ever thought this way). There was a niggling something though, that I couldn’t /quite/ put my finger on to start with, but which over the course of a conversation became clearer.

    The conversation began when the lovely Amy Twitted:

    {quote}
    I am fed up with 95% of adoptive parents out there. I’m convinced adoption is irredeemable. 5% is not good enough.
    {/quote}

    Not unexpectedly, Amy’s assertion was supported. Greg joined in, pointing out in reply to Reenie Weenie that:

    {quote}
    Agreed, but we shouldn’t assume that all are like that. Not saying you personally.
    {/quote}

    Since the thread starts by discussing the 95% that the 5% aren’t enamoured with being likened to, then by virtue of neither number being 100%, it’s pretty obvious that we’ve already come to the conclusion that we aren’t talking about ALL, or else we’d be disussing that 100% figure instead. The conversation goes on, pointing out how and where stereotypes come from, and then the bee in Greg’s bonnet starts getting a bit uptight after reading Reenie’s further comments (#1, #2, #3, #4) that highlight the issue, and wind up with the concise final thrust.

    {quote}
    1. Yes, I think so. When something is deeply effed up, I refuse to participate. Let’s say a group is
    2. 95% murderers. If I don’t want to be perceived as a murderer, I don’t join that group.
    3. I don’t join–and then complain that I’m being unfairly judged/perceived.
    4. Lie with dogs, rise with fleas. Trite–but still true.
    {quote}

    Obviously this narks Greg, and he cries:

    {quote}
    So you are judging me because I was born with a condition that has left me sterile?
    {/quote}

    By now, I’m beginging to think that Greg isn’t quite the full cauldron of piscine products, since he seems to have missed the whole point of the thread that’s been going on for some time. This lack is further illuminated by his following post declaring:

    {quote}
    Easy for someone to say that who was able to have children.
    {/quote}

    This is said in reply to Reenie’s 1/2/3 posts, and is followed up by:

    {quote}
    Just like its easy for me to say biology doesn’t matter not being adopted (which I’m not).
    {/quote}

    Of course, that’s it. Once the “oh woe is me, the poor infertile PAP” whines come out, I really can’t help myself all that much, and HAVE TO go in and point out a small but significant truth:

    {quote}
    Jst because YOU can’t create a kid of your own does NOT entitle you to someone else’s!
    {/quote}

    Not that ^that little snippet of the thread is alone in its indications of his shortage nails in the toolbox. As a side thread off following his “So you are judging me because I was born with a condition that has left me sterile?” Reenie replies honestly:

    {quote}
    No. I’m judging u 4 being willing 2 supprt/enable a corrpt & DAMAGING system if it gets u what u want
    {/quote}

    This strikes me as a perfectly rational perspective, given that the purpose of the thread is a discussion of the damage adoption can do, by virtue of the 100% of adopters supporting the system through adopting. Obviously though, Greg is far from pleased with such a response, given that it taints his saintly image of himself. Of course, I *do* HAVE TO join in again, this time calling him on his typical response pattern.

    Of course, the thread devolves from there, with Greg striving to point out that we’re big bad nasty adoptees insistent on painting all adopters with a broad, black brush, while never once noticing nor listening to the points we’ve made throughout detailing how he’s coming out with the same diatribe that the 95% Amy was originally complaining about in her OP. In fact, the thread goes on for an absolute aaaaaaage, with Greg often and repeatedly telling us we’re not listening to him while not comprehending a single point we’re highlighting for him.

    So why then, did I choose this particular gem from Greg as my reblog option?

    Simples.

    Some long way down the thread, he links to this post, telling me (because by now I’m the only one dumb enough to still be trying to get through to him) that:

    {quote}
    And you can help the demand of babies in America. [chopped linky] Not that you care.
    {/quote}

    Being the unfailing optimist that I am, I come and look at this post in the hopes that while he may not be able to align his perspective with me over Twitter, that he can at least string a decent, sane post together that negates all the crossed swords we’ve encountered, and managed to create something worth sharing.

    I was right to be optimistic, Greg has outdone himself with the sharability of this post – however, I don’t think he’s going to like one bit the derision and scorn that is to be heaped upon it. Not only does he manage to completely miss the MASSIVE differences between childLESS and childFREE (and important point, and the base of his post), but he is actually STUPID enough to include the line:

    {quote}
    the entitlement of infertile couples to have children
    {/quote}

    Just………. wowsers!!!!!!!!

    Yes, he really did say that. Funnier still is that when I linked to the post on Twitter and quoted the line, he denied he’d said it, and asked me to point out where:

    {quote}
    I never said I was entitled. Please explain where I said I was entitled in that piece.
    {/quote}

    *shakes head sadly*

    And that, people, is why I’m reblogging this particular horror story.

    And I’m quoting his final paragraph in full, (a) so I’m not just taking it out of context, and (b) so there’s no point him trying to change it once he realises what a complete dick he’s been in coming out with such crap.

    {quote}
    As I said earlier I understand why these communities would balk at this on the surface, the entitlement of infertile couples to have children has led to many issues. But these people for the most part conceived children of their own. They would not understand the motivation their parents had to become parents. But what they can do is recognize it and have it become a part of their platform. It’s a way they can address the demand in America for couples to become parents.
    {/quote}

  • Dealing with Nasty People on the Internet | A Few Pieces Missing From Normalcy - An Infertile Man's Perspective

    […] This woman proceeded to continue to engage and argue with me. She called me a dickhead and other sorts of things. I could have resorted to firing back with some extreme nasty words but refrained from stooping to her level. Earlier today I found out she reblogged my post on the demand for babies in America. She proceeded to rip it a part and how I was another “Entitled Infertile”. Which was in no way the message I was trying to convey. The message I was trying to convey was that we need to help people not feel entitled. But of course little Miss Sunshine has to be her nasty self to bring down others. You can read her piece of shit here: https://adoptionmania.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/the-demand-in-america-to-become-a-parent/. […]

    • 7rin

      My comment is awaiting moderation – wonder if he’ll ever let it through? 😉

      I’m not a woman, dickwad. :}

      Additionally, if you’re “trying to get rid of someone”, then it’s probably NOT wise to keep going back and leaving comment after comment aimed @them so that they’ll see it, long after they’ve gone to bed. If you were trying so hard to get rid of me, why did I wake up to yet more uncomprehending drivel in my “connect” box, despite having spent the previous nine hours asleep? After all, I’m absolutely convinced I don’t get up and wander down the stairs to type on a computer that’s been turned off.

      LIAR! LIAR! Yer bum’s on fire.

      Sincerely hope people DO come and look at this now you’ve given me all this free advertising, otherwise you’ve wasted your time and effort writing a post especially dedicated to ickle ol’ me.

      The next reply of mine’ll be a repost of his entry dedicated to me, just in case the arsewipe decides to wimp out ‘n’ pull it after all.

  • 7rin

    Reposting his diatribe:

    Dealing with Nasty People on the Internet

    I’ve mentioned a bunch of times on this blog that I’ve engaged in dialogues with many great people in the adoption community. From adoptees to birth/first mothers to adoptive parents each has taught me something. I’m very appreciative for how they have engaged and shared with me. One thing I should make clear is that especially on the adoptee and first/birth mother side few of them have had positive adoptive experiences. By that I mean they have emotional scars from being adopted in different ways. None of them to my knowledge have been physically abused, though that’s not to say that there aren’t those who are physically abused. But there are multiple losses on the birth/first parent and adoptee side that no other person who has not dealt with this loss would understand. Adoptees lose their original birth certificates and the ability to be raised by their biological parents. I respect and recognize that. Just as no person who has not dealt with primary infertility would understand.

    With that being said, in the last two weeks I’ve dealt with the first set of people in the adoption community that I absolutely can’t stand. It all started with a twitter exchange that began with an adoptive mother commenting how she can’t stand adoptive parents who are entitled that cause many of the negative brands that adoptive parents have. Granted a lot of it is justified. I interjected to ask how someone like myself who has only begun to research adoption, who has only researched one agency, who has not given a single penny to any adoption agency would get branded as one of these evil prospective adoptive parents? I then proceeded to be ripped a part by these two bitter, angry and heartless women. I wouldn’t even call them angry adoptees because whether or not they are adopted doesn’t give them the right to be assholes. The one woman at least stepped out at one point saying that I should go away and that she wasn’t going to bother me. Not the nicest thing to say but at least she dropped it and left it alone. I don’t plan on engaging with her again and I doubt she would with me. My loss that I don’t have the chance to learn from her experiences. However, the other woman I was not so lucky in getting rid of.

    This woman proceeded to continue to engage and argue with me. She called me a dickhead and other sorts of things. I could have resorted to firing back with some extreme nasty words but refrained from stooping to her level. Earlier today I found out she reblogged my post on the demand for babies in America. She proceeded to rip it a part and how I was another “Entitled Infertile”. Which was in no way the message I was trying to convey. The message I was trying to convey was that we need to help people not feel entitled. But of course little Miss Sunshine has to be her nasty self to bring down others. You can read her piece of shit here: https://adoptionmania.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/the-demand-in-america-to-become-a-parent/.

    What this nasty human being doesn’t realize is I support her expressing her negative experiences with adoption. I hope more people who have negative experiences and even those with positive experiences that hurt share their adoption stories. I great example is Kat Stanley who had a real shitty adopted experience in an open adoption. I’ve learned so much from her despite how sad and upsetting her story makes me. She deserved much better than what she got. No adoptee deserves to grow up as unsupported as she was. Despite this Kat has been nothing but nice to me in addition unlike Little Miss Sunshine she’s been empathetic towards my infertility. My point in bringing up Kat is that she is great example that adoptees who are hurting can express themselves yet not be assholes to others.

    As I write this piece I hope Little Miss Sunshine backs off and directs her anger elsewhere someday finding piece. I wish her the best on her journey and hope she finds happiness somewhere in that black heart of hers.

    • 7rin

      For the record

      >> This graphic << is a screen cap. of Greg Sdeo’s Internet threat that was originally posted @ https://twitter.com/gsmwc02/status/367576883632013312 but that has now been deleted (probably on the advice of a much saner person, and which is probably why his “Dealing with Nasty People on the Internet” post that was originally posted @ http://afewpiecemissingfromnormalcy.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/dealing-with-nasty-people-on-the-internet/ has also been pulled).

      Contrary to what some may think, this reposting of his threat is not an attempt to just be petty or spiteful, but to alert potential Adoption Agencies and/or bfam’s that he may reach out to in future that they need to look at his temper far more carefully than he may otherwise give them reason to think they do while he’s attempting to woo them in an effort to obtain someone else’s child. This is not because anything he does would affect me in any way, but because his personality WILL affect any child he tries to parent, and my entire raison d’etre is simply to make lives better for any future adoptees.

      Further, it’s to keep all the important stuff (and yes, Internet threats, however mild, are important things to keep track of because one never knows when such tempers may escalate) in one place.

  • rebeccahawkes

    This is all very interesting to me because I read his initial post as exploring the societal factors that contribute to infertile people coming to feel that they are entitled to another person’s child rather than implying that they actually are so entitled. I’ll have to reread the post.

    • 7rin

      Tbh, I’m not sure how I read his post the first time I read it, which is why I didn’t comment on it on first read (nor second, actually). It wasn’t until ^that thread that I quote from ^up there that I actually decided to say anything about it at all, and that was primarily because after having had ^that thread ^up there that I wanted to post about *somewhere*, it seemed the most appropriate thread to hang it off.

      The biggest issue behind ^all this^ is that Greg, like RM (who is far more lovely and (or maybe or?) less liable to fly off the handle) doesn’t seem to be able to carry conversations very far without getting … I dunno, the only way I can think of to describe it is bogged down in them, but that’s not really the most accurate descriptor. Of course, I’ve only been able to base this off ^that thread quoted ^up there and one other, since I only actually came across him the other day, but it’s a trait that makes it very hard for me to be able to converse with him (and her) without frustrating me deeply, which obviously comes out in my “speech” (type) because I’m crap at not letting it do so (it’s also why I’ll never even try to teach anyone anything, nor will I inflict myself on someone else’s kid/s). Add on that I’m naturally abrupt and blunt anyway, and it leads to clashes such as ^this one we’ve just had, as well as the one I had with RM that drove me off-line properly for some weeks (a =major= event given my past ten years or so of barely a day away) that I’m only just recovering from.

      *goes browsing around posts trying to figure out how to explain it more*

      It’s when he keeps coming out with things like “And how many parent less kids did you adopt?” (that one in response to @Spookiemookie84), and “Easy for someone to say that who was able to have children.” (that one to ReenieWeenie, but he repeated it so bloody often to both of us, I began to wonder if he’d accidentally got it stuck in his clipboard *sigh*), as well as the hyper defensive “So you are judging me because I was born with a condition that has left me sterile?” question to RW in a thread where that’s the kinda stuff we’re on about anyway (all of which goes back to what my OP/reblog was mainly about).

      I hold my hands up and admit that I may very well have read his meaning wrong in the post I reblogged, but I wasn’t looking for something to hang =anything= off until he’d continued to attack me, despite me long having written him off into the same camp as I’ve had to write RM off into for the sake of my own sanity, especially since he just repeatedly refused to listen (and would far rather think I don’t give a flying toss about how infertility affects people).

      *sighs again*

      Gotta wind this up ’cause I’m runnin’ late puttin’ dinner on for Mr 7rin now <wry smile> but I’m hoping it’s clarified some of it, even if it still means I’m not really sure what he was trying to say in the post I reblogged because his writings just don’t make very much sense to me much of the time.

  • 7rin

    As an interesting aside, Sectioned has posted about how invalidating people like Greg are being when they insist that “we’re not all like that”.

    Different topic, same issues.

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